{"id":28434,"date":"2020-05-29T10:57:17","date_gmt":"2020-05-29T17:57:17","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/behindthelensonline.net\/site\/?p=28434"},"modified":"2023-08-06T07:50:42","modified_gmt":"2023-08-06T14:50:42","slug":"paradiselostinterviews","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/behindthelensonline.net\/site\/interviews\/interview-exclusives\/paradiselostinterviews\/","title":{"rendered":"It’s a cinematographic paradise with ALAN CASO and NICOLA DALEY on PARADISE LOST – Exclusive Interview"},"content":{"rendered":"
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ALAN CASO is a name that many within the film industry immediately recognize as one that represents excellence in cinematography.\u00a0 With almost 50 years in the industry, Caso started his career as a grip, working his way through the lighting and lensing ranks into camera operation and ultimately cinematographer, garnering four Emmy nominations, three American Society of Cinematographers nominations and two wins, one being the prestigious Television Career Achievement Award.\u00a0 Along the way, Alan has delivered some of the most beautiful and telling imagery to be found on the big and small screens.\u00a0 From television series like Six Feet Under, Big Love, Hawaii 5-0<\/em>, American Gothic<\/em>, and Into the West<\/em>, to made for television movies like A Father for Charlie<\/em> and\u00a0Running Mates<\/em>, to television mini-series Frankenstein<\/i> and\u00a0George Wallace<\/i>, to feature films like Muppets From Space, Reindeer Games<\/em>, and First Sunday<\/em>, Alan Caso is a true storyteller with light and lens.\u00a0 And he keeps on going!<\/p>\nALAN CASO, ASC<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n
And while many recognize Alan Caso for his outstanding cinematographic work, others may know him best for his recent, and very vocal stance on sexism and ageism, which he articulated on accepting the ASC Television Career Achievement Award, set forth here, in part:<\/p>\n
“I\u2019ve found myself ashamed and appalled, especially while working abroad or here with talent from other countries, by the blatant racism and sexism on display. I happily joined the choir of outrage about the Neanderthal ways in which this administration wants to send this country back. But it only took a couple of people rolling their eyes at my outrage that I realized how much of a hypocrite I was, complaining about racism and sexism while surrounding myself with an almost exclusively white and male crew.<\/span><\/em><\/h6>\n
I have no excuse, nor can I justify the many years I spent in a bubble worrying about only myself. Now, this isn\u2019t an easy career for anybody. You book one job, and before that job even ends, you start worrying if you can book another one, so you can cover your kids\u2019 insane tuition bills. But if that\u2019s the pressure I felt throughout my entire career as a white man, I can\u2019t even imagine what it\u2019s like to try and have a career as a woman, a person of color, a woman of color.<\/span><\/em><\/h6>\n
I have sworn to myself that I will spend the remaining years of my career mentoring and kicking some doors in for aspiring cinematographers who don\u2019t look like me. I started this effort last year, and I can tell you, those doors we installed over the years are many, solid, and not easily moved. And I won\u2019t be able to do it alone, so I\u2019m appealing to my peers and my colleagues in this room tonight. You can avoid a moment like I\u2019m having here, standing on a stage admitting you were blissfully asleep in a bubble of your own privilege for the majority of your career. Let\u2019s not only kick in some doors for members of minority groups, let\u2019s uninstall them for good. Let\u2019s surround ourselves with a crew who looks like the real world, not like an Ivy League fraternity.”<\/span><\/em><\/h6>\n
Those words rocked not only the film industry but spread like wildfire on social media and through the general public. What sets Alan Caso apart, however, is that he doesn’t just talk the talk, he walks the walk, as exhibited when pairing up with fellow cinematographer, NICOLA DALEY, for PARADISE LOST, a 10-episode Southern Gothic mystery series about a psychiatrist who moves with her family from California to her husband’s hometown in Mississippi where the Forsythe family reigns supreme with generations of secrets and skeletons just there for the digging.\u00a0 Created by Rodes Fishburne, PARADISE LOST is shot in the Deep South and boasts a cast led by Nick Nolte, Barbara Hershey, Josh Hartnett, and Bridget Regan as the Forsythes, and a supporting cast of luminaries which includes, among others, Gail Bean, Danielle Deadwyler, Elaine Hendrix, Shane McRae, Silas Weir Mitchell, and Jason Davis.<\/p>\nNICOLA DALEY, cinematographer<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n
NICOLA DALEY is an accomplished cinematographer in her own right, known for her work in Australian and British cinema.\u00a0 With almost 20 years in the field to her credit, much of which includes the dual duty of operating the camera in addition to the cinematographic work of designing and establishing lighting and framing to achieve the project’s visual tonal bandwidth, Daley has dazzled with her work on projects like the acclaimed short film I Am Emmanuel,\u00a0<\/em>the TV series documentary SEX: The Unnatural History,\u00a0<\/em>the series The Letdown,\u00a0<\/em>and the lauded Deborah Haywood directed feature Pin<\/em> Cushion.\u00a0 \u00a0<\/em>But even with all of her experience, PARADISE LOST represents a new challenge for Daley as this is her first U.S. production.\u00a0 Of course, who better to partner with for this learning curve than Alan Caso.<\/p>\n
While cinematography is cinematography is cinematography,\u00a0 with PARADISE LOST, the cinematographic experience is more than just “point and shoot”.\u00a0 It’s about bringing the vision of the director and producers to light.\u00a0 It’s about serving the story and designing and crafting the visual tone of each individual episode cohesively and synergistically to tell the complete story arc, something made more challenging by Daley and Caso each tackling different episodes, while still allowing each cinematographer to put their own stamp on the final product.\u00a0 Sounds difficult to achieve on the best of days; hair pulling on the worst.\u00a0 But the proof is in the pudding, as the cinematography of PARADISE LOST is exemplary.<\/p>\n
While Caso was assigned an episode or two more than Daley, don’t think for a second there was any inequity in the division of labor, as Daley was the one responsible for what I believe are some of the most visually powerful and stunning, pivotal episodes in the series.\u00a0 Beauteous and telling, CASO and DALEY\u00a0 capture the authenticity and realism of the South, bringing that region and its residents to life on screen.\u00a0 Celebrating nature’s bounty, they each make magic happen from capturing the thickness and moisture hanging in the humidity laden air to exposing the beauty of a location defining algae-covered swamp.\u00a0 They create depth and texture drawing metaphoric walls between people and the past and present with light and lens.\u00a0 They show us the socio-economic and familial divisiveness that fuels the world of PARADISE LOST thanks to judicious framing applications.\u00a0 \u00a0They immerse us in the ambience of this time and this space.\u00a0 They give us unforgettable moments defined literally and figuratively by their work.\u00a0 And what they each do lensing Nick Nolte and Barbara Hershey, the patriarch and matriarch of the Forsythe family, is glorious.<\/p>\n
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So how do two cinematographers from opposite sides of the world come together to create a world like PARADISE LOST?\u00a0 For Nicola Daley to be a “fish out of water” in the Deep South of the United States experiencing a union-driven work system for the first time?\u00a0 For Alan Caso to follow his own words and break down the barriers of sexism and ageism?\u00a0 The answer is easier than you might imagine.\u00a0 Collaboration.\u00a0 And this is one amazing collaboration.<\/p>\n
I had a chance to delve into the world of PARADISE LOST in an exclusive conversation with ALAN CASO and NICOLA DALEY talking everything cameras, lenses, color correction, drones, logistic challenges, continuity threads, collaboration, and so much more.\u00a0 They are in synch at every turn, be it in the mindset towards filmmaking, approaching a story visually with camera and lens, or their appreciation for their craft.\u00a0 And they are fun! But our conversation wasn’t limited to just the series.\u00a0 Alan and I took a trip down memory lane recalling his early days as a camera operator on the film House, <\/em>the fun of Muppets From Space<\/em>, and the less than six degrees of separation between us over all these decades before finally getting to chat now, while Nicola reflected on British and Australian production versus that in America or “Hollywood” before we all dug in our heels discussing inclusiveness, diversity, sexism, ageism, and the whys\/why-nots of cinematographers moving into directing.<\/p>\n
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Thank you so much for doing this today!\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n
ALAN CASO\u00a0 (AC):\u00a0 No, thank you for having me aboard. This is terrific, I’m very excited.<\/p>\n
So, let’s talk PARADISE LOST. I binge-watched this whole series not just once, but twice.\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It’s great. It’s a great show. Isn’t it?\u00a0 I wish you could speak to Rodes Fishburne on that, and also the people of Paramount.\u00a0 I don’t know why they decided not to do another season of it because I think it’s a great show.<\/p>\n
I think it is fabulous. It is so engrossing and the characters are just fascinating.\u00a0 To see Nick Nolte in this role is wonderful.\u00a0 \u00a0And then to pair him with Barbara Hershey, and in such an important role in the series?\u00a0 Fabulous.\u00a0 Fabulous to see him as the Judge.\u00a0 And the way that both of you light and lens Nick and Barbara. . . Barbara looks spectacular.<\/strong><\/p>\n
One thing that the two of you did that I noticed that was consistent through all 10 episodes, and I so loved seeing this, is that you took advantage and you really celebrated – especially with night shoots and lighting – you celebrated the humidity in the air because humidity in the South is like none other.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 You couldn’t have paid a bigger compliment than saying that right now, because that was definitely the single first order of business. At least I think, and Nic correct me if I’m wrong, but that seemed to be the one thing that everybody was preoccupied on as far as the visual scopes. That they wanted to feel the thickness, the humidity, the overbearing heat of the South.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yeah. And I think that went across departments, right?\u00a0 Because talking about Nick, and we were talking about Nick sweating through costumes and stuff.\u00a0 And I remember Rodes was like, “No, people sweat in the South.” It was part of the texture of the show.\u00a0 I loved that about it.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0He wanted to see the sweat rings and he wanted to see the perspiration on the faces and stuff like that. He was very adamant about that.<\/p>\n
For me, it was about the humidity hanging in the air; that it was palpable.<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It was great. It was real.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It was brutal.\u00a0 Then there’s just a lot of bugs.<\/p>\n
I’m surprised you don’t have bugs stuck on the camera lens. I’ve seen that happen before.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yeah. It took some getting used to.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I remember the crew kept saying, because a lot of them are from New Orleans, “Why are we shooting in June and July?”\u00a0 A lot of the time we have summer off, and then we start again in September.\u00a0 But that was such an integral part of the show, I think. What do you think Alan?<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yeah, exactly. \u00a0 I think Rodes did it on purpose.\u00a0 He’s from Mississippi, so he knew what we were getting into.\u00a0 He’s used to it.\u00a0 I will tell you something though.\u00a0 It gets really cold during the winter.\u00a0 I was down there in the beginning of 2016 in January, beginning of January, to shoot on Roots<\/em>, and I spent some really cold nights. Some of the coldest nights I’ve ever spent in the swamps.\u00a0 It was below freezing, easily.\u00a0 And there was rime and frost everywhere.\u00a0 It was really cold.\u00a0 You get that too, but I think also it was an exceptionally cold winter for them down there at that time, that year.<\/p>\n
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Not only do we get to feel the humidity and see it in the air, but the way both of you, on your respective episodes, the way you use light – headlights, twinkle lights – that really just enhances it. There are so many shots in multiple episodes, night shoots with light, with this mist, which gets heavier at night with the humidity, and it creates this emotional tone of dread, fear, and mysticism. <\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yeah. I think that’s what Rodes was hoping to get.\u00a0 Nicola and I put a whole book together in the very beginning visually of what we wanted to do.\u00a0 So I think we had some pretty good guidelines on where we wanted to be, what kind of lenses we wanted to use, and the kind of lighting we wanted to do.\u00a0 \u00a0We had a very clear plan laid out ahead of time before we even started shooting.<\/p>\n
You shot the Sony Venice, and I think Sony A7S as well.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yes. We just used those. They were sort of like our crash camera. When you need to get a camera in some tight spot, or we were mounting it in a tight spot in a car or something like that. But we used the Venices because we had to deliver a 4K.<\/p>\n
What are you going to do now when people want 6 and 8K?\u00a0 That’s one of the things I missed that they canceled the NAB convention this year.\u00a0 I always like to see what the new or next technology is. They’ve been dangling 6K for a while, and it was supposed to be a big 6K\/8K presentation this year, but sadly Coronavirus had other ideas.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 Well, the cameras aren’t there yet. Really. I mean, not in any appreciable form.\u00a0 The Venice can be so interesting.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It’s a big question for post-production of TV as well.\u00a0 Here in Britain we still do 2K for some shows.\u00a0 So it’s a big file storage question, like, how are they going to store all that 6K and 8K footage.\u00a0 That’s the big, big problem I think.<\/p>\n
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What lenses did you end up using for this?\u00a0 Something that I find striking with both of you is that you are very, very judicious, and very limited in your use of closeups.\u00a0 Similarly, wide shots.\u00a0 There are a few times you go wide, but everything is pretty much mid-shots, a mid two-shot, a closeup of two. So I’m curious what lenses you went with here?<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Well, a lot of that’s editorial.\u00a0 We shot a lot of the show in wide shots which they ended up not using.\u00a0 We wanted them to use it, we talked about it in the beginning, but usually what happens is that when you get into the negotiation stage between the showrunner, directors, producers, and the networks, they’re always pushing to get into the medium shots and all that.\u00a0 They just want to be closer.\u00a0 It’s just a culture.\u00a0 It’s something that’s been hard to break because everybody who markets for TV, they still think it’s a closeup medium.\u00a0 And it really doesn’t have to be nor should it be because the majority of people’s home screens are big now.\u00a0 They have gotten a little bigger in our houses. And so it’s just kind of some stuff that’s leftover. So really, I’m glad that they didn’t go into the real tight close-ups alot because then that would have just ruined the show.\u00a0 So at least they kind of held back and kept the main shots. But trust me when I tell you, Nicola and I used a lot of wide lenses and we shot a lot of wide shots.\u00a0 It just ended up not staying in them as long.\u00a0 We wanted to have them be in it longer than they used it.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n
You’ve got the geographic area, the topography, the beauty of the forest, the woods.\u00a0 I want to see that ambiance.\u00a0 If you’re going to be there, show me. Show me that you’re there because this entire area, it defines who the Forsythe family is.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I know that Rodes really fought for wide and medium wide shots that are in that show. I’m sure he fought for it because it was really important to him to let everybody know where we really were. Because dang it, you get these TV shows that shoot in these wonderful, exotic places and they’re shooting everything in closeups.\u00a0\u00a0 And you even see that in feature films a lot. He’s like, “Why are you bothering shooting in these places when everything’s in mediums and closeups?”\u00a0 It’s aggravating.\u00a0 [Talking lenses], Nicola, do you want to answer this one?<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0We used a mixture actually. We used H-series super speeds and some detuned Optimas, all from Panavision. So I think it speaks to what Alan was saying about the atmosphere.\u00a0 Those choices of lenses sort of take that digital edge off everything.\u00a0 I mean, the Venice is a beautiful camera and it renders skin tone in a gorgeous way and colors in a gorgeous way.\u00a0 But those lenses were beautiful in making it that atmospheric Southern landscape. And we looked at paintings and all sorts at the beginning.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0That’s right. You’re right. Yeah, we sure did.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yeah. Wim Wenders and William Eggleston and those sorts.\u00a0 It’s interesting about what you’re saying about landscapes.\u00a0 A few of my wides made it.\u00a0 I think that’s so important for the South, isn’t it, because that is a character in the film and that’s what Rodes always said as well.\u00a0 So it’s important to show the environment as well as the character’s frames within that.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0If you’d seen John Lee\u00a0 Hancock’s cut for the pilot, you would have seen a lot more wide shots.\u00a0 You know, it’s frustrating for all of us, because there’s just this insistence on these closeup shots.\u00a0 They just want to be there.<\/p>\n
I want to feel like I am immersed in that world, that I am standing there. And that’s why I always appreciate the wider shots, because you really get steeped in time and place when you have that. <\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Especially if you’re using wider shots with wide lenses, as opposed to wide shots on long telephoto lenses.\u00a0 It’s like the feeling that you’re looking at the top of a mesa from the next mesa, a mile and a half away, as opposed to being right up next to the mesa with a wide lens where you feel like you’re actually in there.<\/p>\n
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You do have some really incredible shots in here, in the newspaper office, for example. And I think this is an episode that you did, Alan, where it’s like we’re a fly on the wall up in the corner, shooting down in the empty office.\u00a0 \u00a0Episode Nine, The Black Dog Barked<\/em>.\u00a0 But it’s up high on the second floor in the newspaper office and it’s empty.\u00a0 And there are a few instances where we have a situation like that.\u00a0 Episode five, Danger to Yourself<\/em>, where you’ve got dutching with the camera shooting up at the kid up in the rafters, and then looking down.\u00a0 I love some of those because it really jars the perspective and makes you feel like you’re a fly on the wall, or you’re on the ground and you’re about to get stomped.\u00a0 But where the two of you really get to play are with these flashback sequences.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0They were fun, right?<\/p>\n
So much fun!\u00a0 Number one, the color dynamic.\u00a0 I love watching the progression of the color with the flashback sequences, as we get more into the yellow wash, the neon look, before ultimately getting back to episode 10 with the judge going through his scrapbook and having his own flashback, yet it’s not skewed with saturation. It’s not hallucinogenic. It’s rooted in reality, more or less telling us he’s now facing up to and realizes what he has done in life. And I love that progression. But those flashback sequences, the Memphis drug-induced flashback sequences are fabulous.\u00a0 All of Boyd’s little trips back. How challenging was it designing that?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0So much of that, I’ve got to give credit to Maxine Gervais, who was the colorist of the show. She’s the one who actually came up with the initial idea.\u00a0 Nicola and I kept on banging our heads saying, “What do we really want to do about these flashbacks? What do we want to do?”\u00a0 One thing we all talked about, and I’ll say a little bit about John Lee Hancock and Romeo Tirone, who’s the producing director, we all thought let’s do the opposite thing.\u00a0 Let’s make the flashbacks actually more saturated than the real thing.\u00a0 \u00a0The real-life stuff was more in the softer pastels that kind of represented that humidity thing that you’re talking about, Debbie. But for the flashbacks, let’s go a little more kind of brutal and more stark colors, skewed primaries and stuff like that.\u00a0 \u00a0And that’s kind of all we did, but we really didn’t know what to do, and so I kind of passed that on to Maxine and said “Maxine, come up with something, just kind of show it to us and see what you come up with.”\u00a0 And she’s the one who really came up with this kind of skewed… They’re not primary colors, but they’re not basically secondary colors either.\u00a0 She found these other colors and she kept it to two or three colors.\u00a0 So she didn’t over-bombard you with a lot of different colors, but the few colors that she gave you were saturated and different and skewed. And I just thought it really worked well, as well, she kind of tweaked around with the contrast and stuff like that too.<\/p>\n
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I love the camera work in those flashbacks as well, especially the hallucinogenic one where we’ve got a triptych going on there that I know was done in post, but we’re looking at the camera, the movement.\u00a0 For the most part, you guys were shooting most of this on sticks or steady cam, but then when we really get into the flashbacks, talk about the camera movement!\u00a0 My God, it’s fabulous.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 You want to tell them what we did? Tell her about what we did, Nicola, with the 2C camera.\u00a0 This was Romeo [Tirone]’s deal and it was a good idea.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0We had the 2C 35 mil camera with the hand crank. So that was sort of the transition into the flashback and actually they used them a lot more than that, which was brilliant, I think, because it gives it that sort of jittery, secrets-falling-apart kind of mystery unfolding, which I think is brilliant. \u00a0But basically, we hand-cranked it and then we reversed it and then we would jump around and it was fascinating actually.\u00a0 Whenever we got that out and did that, the operators would get all excited and everyone would have this sort of like, “Yeah, we’re doing the 35 mil bit.”\u00a0 It was sort of like everyone would just get reinvigorated again about using film and having this sort of grainy texture.\u00a0 But it was so much fun. I loved that, actually.<\/p>\n
But those sequences are just eye-popping and they are, they’re fun watching them, because it comes at you, it’s so in your face that… It’s like memories, you put yourself in their shoes and memories, all of a sudden when they flood back, they can stop you in your tracks sometimes.<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Memories are so fragmented. You remember a bit and then another bit and kind of like a dreamlike world. So I think it’s a good tool to use for this, it’s perfect., especially that mystery unraveling, skeletons in the closet kind of angle.<\/p>\n
There’s a lot of skeletons in this show. A lot of skeletons.\u00a0 And I’m talking beyond the body farm!\u00a0 One of the most fun scenes to watch is obviously when Dickie’s going crazy and he has all the dead bodies in his truck and he’s on Boyd’s lawn and going round and round, throwing body parts, flying out of the bed of the truck.\u00a0 I know from a stunt perspective, doing that, either you’re going to get it right the first time, or you’re going to have to redo it and redo it and redo it.\u00a0 And here, the camera is actually capturing those great donuts and movement from a crane or drone perspective as well as eye level.\u00a0 After the truck takes off, littering the lawn with dead body parts, we see the dirt, tire treads in the circle.\u00a0 It just amazed me, having worked on stunt units with similar stunts, to see the “cleanliness” of that.\u00a0 \u00a0And all I could think is, “Did they do this in one take or how many takes did they do this one?\u00a0 It just looked so good.<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It was probably one of the most challenging things we did, Debbie. We talked a lot in pre-production obviously.\u00a0 We had a brilliant First AD in Jessica Pollini.\u00a0 We would all talk about, “Once we do this, that’s gone, that lawn, so we’ve got to get it right.”\u00a0 But I tell you, what happened is the truck came in and before it even hit the lawn it stalled and that happened about four times because it was an old truck.\u00a0 So it just hit a bump and would stall, and then we do it again and it would do the same thing.\u00a0 We’re like, “Well, how are we going to piece this together?”\u00a0 So I think we had three cameras mounted in the back of it, but all the bodies jigging around.\u00a0 So we had a lot of cameras on it.\u00a0 Then we sort of had to piece it together.\u00a0 We thought we could do one whole take with three cameras, but because the truck wouldn’t drive all the way in and around and out again, we had to piece it all together,.\u00a0 It was a lot of planning.\u00a0 We wanted the big reveal at the end where you go up high and you see all the bodies.\u00a0 Boyd comes out and switches on the security light and it’s like, “Oh shit, there are all the dead bodies all over his lawn.”\u00a0 It was important to have that emotional beat where you go, “Yeah. Boyd’s gone to another level now.”<\/p>\n
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The end result looks spectacular.\u00a0 \u00a0I laughed when I saw that. That big reveal made me laugh out loud.\u00a0 And it’s a perfect tie in to episode one, Down the Rabbit Hole<\/em>, or episode two, the Damn Beetles from Japan<\/em> episode, when we actually experience the body farm through rotting parts, as the camera weaves through it. And I have to say, I do like the closeups in that episode of the body farm, Alan.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Well, here’s the thing, is that when you use close-ups sparingly they mean something.\u00a0 But if you go into a tight close up in every scene, it has one tone and one tone only.\u00a0\u00a0And that’s why so many of these TV shows all have the same tone.\u00a0 There’s no hills and valleys in the drama.\u00a0 So I like shows that use close-ups sparingly.<\/p>\n
How did you guys go about divvying up who would do which episodes here?<\/strong><\/p>\n
That was predetermined by the producers before we were even hired, how they were going to break those up.<\/p>\n
When they’re broken up in situations like this, you’ve got a 10-episode arc here, they’re divvied up, you’re each doing something, how do you maintain the visual tonal bandwidth continuity through all 10 episodes with two different voices?\u00a0 While there’s one voice for the show, obviously you each have your own voice that will get infused in there some way. So I’m curious how that collaboration works.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It’s always a tricky balance because you want variety. So you want the two people, Nicola and I, to have our separate inputs, but the threads that keep similarity through everything, running through it all, is stuff that has to be decided in prep.\u00a0 \u00a0So once Nicola and I decided on the basic look and feel of the stuff that we would adhere to as a pair, as a duo, the stuff that we would do on the same plane, as far as our interpretation of those things, we each went our separate ways and did what we wanted to do. I certainly didn’t want to influence her in a restrictive way of what she would naturally bring in. I don’t think she wanted to do it with me either. I think we both wanted to feel free as birds to do our own things on our blocks, our episodes blocks.\u00a0 \u00a0But we also knew that we had to have a common denominator for everything so that the show had a continuity and had threads that were going through it all that were similar. But you want the variety, you want the difference in the episodes. I think that’s what gives it a lot of flair and it also gives you the peaks and valleys, gives you the differences.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
One of the big company continuities that I saw in every episode is you obviously set a tone with the use of light and windows. We see that with the newspaper office where you’ve got light streaming through the window, you’ve got the glass pane between the office and the quote-unquote press room.\u00a0 But what I found interesting is that there’s never focus on the background. The press room, anytime we’re in the office, there’s that glass there, and there’s always something. With the Forsythe family, there’s always something with doorways, with windows, and then varying degrees of light coming through. And I see this through every episode here, and I love that thread. I just love how that plays.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0That was one of the threads that we talked about – making sure that our compositions, and also the way we shot stuff, had the layers; and the compartmentalizing of not just the shots, what you see in the shots, but it represents the compartmentalizing of what everybody’s going through in keeping secrets, in keeping things from each other and all that. So all that stuff was integral and metaphoric as far as delivering the underlying message to the audience without being too obvious, I guess.<\/p>\n
The entire series screams metaphor. And I find that positively delicious. I always love seeing that because it elevates cinematography. It’s not just putting a camera in somebody’s hand and saying point and shoot.\u00a0 When watching something, the cinematography is a visual storytelling in its own right.\u00a0 It’s its own layer of storytelling.\u00a0 It’s not “point and shoot”. And I love seeing that and I love it in something like this, where I see it consistently through the entire series.<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 I think that’s where it was exciting, those layers and everything.\u00a0 Obviously they’re on the script, so I think that when I read it, and before Alan and everyone interviewed me, that’s what got me excited, was all those layers.\u00a0 And then visually, Alan and I thought about reflections as well.\u00a0 I suppose, good in the office because there’s all that glass and everything to play with, but reflections of people and what they really mean and the subtext and who they really are underneath, what they’ve been showing you in the first couple of episodes and all that stuff in a show like this is really fun to play with, I think.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0In hindsight, I kind of wish that I had done more of the reflection stuff than I actually did because it was something that we did talk about.\u00a0 But reflections are always such a difficult thing because they take time and they take concept and it has to be integral to the set design and the lighting.\u00a0 It’s very time consuming, so unless it’s a full-court press with everybody is on board, it’s a really hard thing to just throw together when you’re on the set saying, “Hey, let’s do this reflection shot, let’s whip it out in five minutes.” It doesn’t work out that way.\u00a0 To give you a perfect example of what we’d even planned ahead of time and it was impossible to do, in the very first episode when Yates is going back to his car after he meets all the guys for the pancake breakfast and he’s walking out and we see the sheriff for the first time.\u00a0 And he pulls up in his car and he pulls in right next to Yates. What we wanted to do is, we wanted to see the reflection of Yates in the sheriff’s window.\u00a0 And as he rolls the window down, there’s the sheriff.\u00a0 So you go from the reflection to the sheriff, but it just didn’t work.\u00a0 And it would have been a very time-consuming thing.\u00a0 We were way behind on that day and we just couldn’t get it in the time allotted.\u00a0 So it’s one of those things where, again, you need time to do it.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I’ve got to ask you Alan, about Claude’s adult bookstore-radio station combination. Love the lighting, the use of lighting.\u00a0 You’ve got the little red twinkle Christmas lights on the one hand, but then we move into an almost altar there honoring Janus [Forsythe]\u00a0 with, there must be at least a hundred, if not more little tea light candle lights there. It looks gorgeous. The way you’ve shot it, and with that lighting, it looks fabulous.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It was kind of this warped thing, wasn’t it? And I love the actor who played Claude, with the little pencil-thin mustache. He was just fantastic.\u00a0\u00a0 And the use of color, just to go crazy with the color in there was just so much fun.\u00a0 It was just audacious and bold.<\/p>\n
That’s something that’s very interesting when you look at the series as a whole because you see the color that is in Claude’s adult bookstore, and then the only other place you really see color is in Gynni and Nicque’s Airstream<\/strong>.\u00a0 And as we watch this whole thing play out and we get to episode 10, who’s now stolen the Airstream, who has that Airstream, but Claude?<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0That’s true.\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 Although, there is one other place that has a huge amount of color and that’s the riverboats.\u00a0 The prostitution riverboats.\u00a0 But once again, it has to do with sex and Claude and all the seedy underbelly of the area.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
And Pouchy is a direct conduit to Claude because Pouchy was the one who was there the night of the fire.\u00a0 It’s interesting to see how that color ties in.\u00a0 Everything else is very similar, very muted, very pastel.\u00a0 Again, but for the flashback sequences, that are an animal amongst themselves.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0That’s true.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It’s interesting, Debbie,\u00a0 as a lot of the motivation for the light is naturalistic, through the window, where’s the force in the real light.\u00a0 But I think in a show like this, when you’ve got elements of mysticism, you try to subtly put it in, like in the Mississippi Ophelia in Mrs. Timpken’s house.\u00a0 So there’s a very light purple glow when he comes in the door and when he steals the painting.\u00a0 It’s not very obvious because obviously, where’s purple light coming from, but it’s supposed to be this nod to the mysticism of the legends that they’ve told about the painting.\u00a0 So I don’t know, Alan, what you think about… It’s always interesting when you are motivating light but then you want to put in a sort of unmotivated color.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I love that.\u00a0 I am such a fan of that, and especially what you did there. I thought it was terrific.\u00a0 And I don’t think you have to explain.\u00a0 There’s a weird natural phenomenon with light in life anyway.\u00a0 Several times\u00a0 I’d be looking at something and walking over and finding out why it’s coming that way.\u00a0 My wife would always laugh and say, “Nope, there he goes again. Trying to figure out some kind of light thing.”\u00a0\u00a0But if you are aware of it, you realize how much that actually occurs in daily life anyway.\u00a0 A lot of times it just has to do with the sun reflecting off a wall that’s colored a particular color, and it’s glowing on the inside of your house through a window.\u00a0 And you think, “Oh my God, what is that aqua blue light on my wall? Where’s that come from?”\u00a0 You look outside and realize, “Oh, because the building across the way is getting burned with sunlight.”<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 Exactly. And I think being in lockdown has made me realize all those things in my house.\u00a0 Now I know the entire sun path of my flat.\u00a0 And exactly what you said.\u00a0 In the afternoon, it reflects off the building next door and comes in this yellowy weird glow.\u00a0 And you think, “Oh wow! I’ve spent a lot of time in here now.”<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
How logistically challenging was this shoot in terms of moving from location to location. You’re out in the woods. So you’re not just dealing with bugs and humidity and heat, but you’ve got poison ivy, poison oak, which are prevalent, along with brambles and briars that run around there.\u00a0 You’ve got a swamp scene.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0This show is so ambitious, just because the scripts themselves were so dense.\u00a0 When there’s a descriptive paragraph, it’s not just a descriptive paragraph describing something.\u00a0 It’s sort of like saying, “Ben-Hur races and wins.”\u00a0 But what does that entail?\u00a0 Well, it entails about 2000 shots.\u00a0 That was kind of what this show was like.\u00a0 It was incredibly dense.\u00a0 So let me put it this way.\u00a0 When we were in our last four weeks of production, we literally had three units shooting consistently every day.\u00a0 It was that crazy.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Plus the drone unit.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Plus the drone unit. Yeah.\u00a0 We were just having to catch up with all the stuff that we kept on having to put off.\u00a0 We also got knocked out a couple of times with the weather. We’d have these horrific thunderstorms and we’d lose a third of a day of shooting.\u00a0 So just a lot of pick up and catch up.\u00a0 And because we didn’t have a hard delivery date, we were allowed to pick up stuff later.\u00a0 I think the whole production went a few days past what we were originally supposed to go. So it did go over a little bit.<\/p>\n
Given the density of this series. I’m surprised it didn’t go over more than a few days.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 Yeah. And I think most of those days, if not all of them, were legitimate insurance days because of the weather.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0We had a hurricane warning, didn’t we?\u00a0 A couple of days.\u00a0 That was new to me, Debbie.\u00a0 We don’t have that in Britain.<\/p>\n
I’m curious, for you, Nicola. This is your first US production. Yes?\u00a0 So, how was the culture shock of a US production with the union regulations?\u00a0 With working with crews here?\u00a0 How was this whole experience for you, and would you ever want to do a US production again?<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yes, that’s correct.\u00a0 I loved it! I mean, it’s always nerve-wracking to go in and inherit a crew, but I’ve done a bit of that before. Alan brought the DIT and the Steadicam Op, I think. So everyone else was from New Orleans mostly.\u00a0 So yeah, it is always nerve-wracking because you don’t know anyone, but they were all so lovely and so good.\u00a0 We have a slightly different system here in the UK, with the grips and the lighting. Grips in the UK, just do everything to move the camera. They have nothing to do with the diffusion or the flagging off of anything.\u00a0 So I just said to the gaffer at the beginning, “Look, I’m from the British system and excuse me if I tell the wrong person to do the wrong thing.”\u00a0 And they were just lovely to me.\u00a0 They were so nice.\u00a0 And I loved it.\u00a0 I thought it was fantastic.\u00a0\u00a0I do normally operate because I come from the Australian and British system.\u00a0 So the US union didn’t allow me to operate, which was actually fine, because I could overview everything and really concentrate on the lighting.\u00a0 It is a lot to do when you operate and light.\u00a0 You do feel like you’re going a bit insane every day.\u00a0 But then it was kind of weird to sit in a chair for four months.\u00a0 But I loved it.\u00a0 I really loved it.\u00a0 It did make me laugh, Debbie, that they all called me ma’am, which was very southern, of course.\u00a0 I said, “You can’t call me ma’am. That’s for the queen.”\u00a0 And so I said, as a joke to them, “In England they call me gov’nor.”\u00a0 Well, that was it for the rest of the shoot.\u00a0 They just called me gov’nor with a fake British accent.\u00a0 And then we all got on like a house on fire. So it was brilliant.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Nicola, you couldn’t be working on a project with a more perfect person than Alan, who turned the world upside down with his speech a few years ago on inclusion and diversity. And this marriage here of the two of you just exemplifies and embodies that.\u00a0 And here you are now. You’re jumping into a US production.\u00a0 Thank God you did it with Alan.\u00a0 But I’m curious for both of you about the importance of this collaboration, in these times, in light of what you have been very vocal about Alan.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0This was such a success story on all those levels.\u00a0 \u00a0And I’ve had some good success and not so good success trying to bring in inclusive situations.\u00a0 And it mostly has to do with the short-sightedness, and the blindness from hiring powers.\u00a0 It’s amazing how shortsighted and how closed-minded the people who are responsible for hiring us are, the people who have it in their power to make this industry much more inclusive.\u00a0 Nicole, you brought out probably the best point of what we’re up against when we go into places and hire crews from scratch.\u00a0 \u00a0Maybe you can elaborate a little more, about your example about the list that we are handed.<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I was saying to Debbie, I was saying to lots of people actually, I just want to hire my crew to be a diverse crew.\u00a0 It’s very important to me because I think that’s the way forward and they should be like that behind the camera and in front of the camera because that’s how we tell the best stories.\u00a0 That’s how we progress the business, on the business side of things as well.\u00a0 But I’m always handed lists, always, that are a hundred percent white men.\u00a0 And I always question those lists because it’s not that women aren’t out there, which obviously we’ve heard a lot, or people of color are out there.\u00a0 It’s just that the lists are very traditionally what people have always looked at.\u00a0 \u00a0So I\u00a0 question every list I’m given, even on this show that we’re on hiatus from, or feature films.\u00a0 Because we had to hire a local crew North of England, I just said, “Well, is there anyone else?”\u00a0\u00a0And then they were like, “Well, we don’t know.”\u00a0 So there’s lots of resources.\u00a0 In a way, you can go and look for those people, which is great.\u00a0 It’s just always questioning like Alan did.\u00a0 He said, “Oh, gosh.\u00a0 I’ve been hiring people that look like me.\u00a0 Maybe I should think a bit more about that.”\u00a0 And that’s just what we all need to do.\u00a0 And that speech that Alan made.\u00a0 \u00a0He knows how amazing that is.\u00a0 \u00a0But that went viral in my community because all the female cinematographers were like, “This is the most amazing speech ever.”\u00a0 So when I realized I was going to get interviewed by Alan Caso, I fell off my chair.<\/p>\n
I love Mandy Walker’s work.\u00a0 And I think she’s very overlooked when it comes to The Academy when it comes to awards.\u00a0 Look at what she did with Hany on The Mountain Between Us<\/em>.\u00a0 I talked to both of them about the challenges shooting up there in the snow. In lighting snow. It’s almost as bad as lighting humidity.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 She does great work.\u00a0 I’ve got to say, her work is really terrific. She’s a real tour de force<\/em>. I think she’s terrific.\u00a0 She did a western with a director friend of mine, Gavin O’Connor. I forget the name of the western now [Jane Got A Gun<\/em>] but it was a terrific piece that she did.\u00a0 Westerns are not easy to shoot.\u00a0 I’ve done quite a few of them now, and they’re not easy.\u00a0 And the worst part about a western is that if you want it to really look good, the worse the weather, the better the movie looks. Because that’s where you get all that dramatic outside stuff.\u00a0 But you go through absolute pure hell if you’re out there fighting hail and rain and snow, and the conditions, and dust and dirt.\u00a0 So you go through hell to get your art.\u00a0 And she obviously did her part.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Absolutely. And Reed Morano. For me, her calling card is Frozen River.<\/em>\u00a0 \u00a0But where do you see women becoming more of the conversation in cinematography?\u00a0 It just annoys the heck out of me that people are still not looking at women for this job.\u00a0 \u00a0And this all goes back to Brianne Murphy, the first female cinematographer in ASC, and what she instilled in me.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I think it’s just a point of when they are no longer the exception to the rule, but they’re just a common face on the set, like everybody else’s.\u00a0 The ubiquity is what you want.\u00a0 You want to see women and people of color everywhere filling out the ranks and files so that there’s no longer a reason to say, “Well, they’re unique.\u00a0 They’re just special.\u00a0 They happen to have a special talent, but normally they wouldn’t be able to make it in this business.”\u00a0 That’s the attitude that we get.\u00a0 That’s the reason why you get these people that say, “Well, do they really have enough experience? Should we really be taking a chance on…” Fuck. You take a chance on these young white guys out of college.\u00a0 And giving them an excuse to say to them, when they fuck up, you say, “Well they’re just learning the ropes.\u00a0 They’ll get it once they give them a little more experience.” And if it’s a woman or person of color who made that mistake, it’s like, “Whoa, see, they really don’t have the talent to do it.”<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I did a feature film called Pin Cushion<\/em> that went to Venice Film Festival about three years ago.\u00a0 It’s a million pound film, so it’s a low budget film, and we had a woman of color as our grip.\u00a0 She’s amazing.\u00a0 She’s been in the industry for years and years and she has been grip assisting for a long time, and that’s obviously because of people’s attitudes towards her.\u00a0 I remember I got her CV and I said, “I want to hire Grace” and the line producer said, “Yeah, but look at her CV. She’s not really done lots of bigger stuff for years.\u00a0 Why she’d been doing all these short films?” And I said to him, “What do you think?\u00a0 She’s a woman of color in the grip department.\u00a0 Why do you think she hasn’t got big feature films on her CV?” And he looked at me and he said, “Oh yeah. Okay.” I was like, “So let’s hire her.”<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Very good. That’s very good. That’s actually a great argument. And I’m going to remember that. \u00a0 That’s exactly what they always say.\u00a0 “Well, you know why she’s doing this stuff?\u00a0 How come she’s done all these little\u00a0 [projects]. . .”\u00a0 \u00a0“Well, she’s a woman.\u00a0 What do you think!” Hello!”<\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0And people keep saying she can’t do it.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
I see them so often on my end.\u00a0 Somebody only has all these short films to their credit and it’s like, “My God, your short films are so good. Why are you not working on a feature?”\u00a0 And it’s because nobody will give them the chance.\u00a0 It just aggravates me.\u00a0 <\/strong>So Alan, are you ever going to step into the director’s chair?<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I did that on Six Feet Under<\/em> and the reason why I wanted to do it was I just wanted to get my DGA card so that I could go off and shoot and direct second units, which I’ve done a little bit of.\u00a0 But you have to want to be a director.\u00a0 You have to enjoy talking people into something they don’t want to do, which is what a director does.\u00a0 Or try to convince them that what they say they don’t want to do is actually what they do want to do.\u00a0 They’re just doing it to be contrary. Because that’s basically what happens when you’re dealing with an actor.\u00a0 \u00a0And I love working with actors, but I’m not crazy about working with actors as a director, although my experience doing it on Six Feet Under<\/em> was a great experience.\u00a0 And I turned out a really good show and they were really happy.\u00a0 They wanted me to come back the next season and do two more episodes, although that’s when I left to do something else.\u00a0 But I’ve got a DGA card, but I have no interest in being a director.\u00a0 And frankly, a director of photography is not entry-level to become a director.<\/p>\n
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I don’t know why everybody’s expecting all the cinematographers who are successful to then go on to direct.\u00a0 You know why so many of them do it?\u00a0 I’ll tell you the reason why is because when they’re working on a show, TV shows, but also even features, and these directors who come on who’ve never directed anything, the cinematographer basically is doing a lot of that director’s job.\u00a0 The cinematographer basically is doing a lot of that director’s job.\u00a0 And they’re frustrated and they’re seeing this director get all this money, plus all these residuals, which the cinematographer doesn’t get.\u00a0 And they say, “Well, why the fuck am I helping this person do this? I should just be doing it myself.”\u00a0 \u00a0That’s why you’ve seen so many cinematographers become directors.\u00a0\u00a0But I can guarantee you every one of those cinematographers misses shooting.\u00a0 They miss the art form of shooting, but they’re just making too much money as a director.\u00a0 Frankly, sure. maybe I should have done that a long time ago.\u00a0 It sure would’ve been easier putting my kids through private school if I was making more of a director’s money.\u00a0 But I didn’t.\u00a0 It’s a choice I made and I don’t regret it because, you know what, I’m a really good director’s cinematographer.\u00a0 When I come on a show, I support the director.\u00a0 I don’t do what a lot of gentlemen do, especially in series work, where they’re sniping at the directors all the time.\u00a0 Because it’s “Well, this is my bailiwick and he’s just a guest or\u00a0 she’s just a guest.” I don’t do that.\u00a0 I try to incorporate and support directors.\u00a0 And I’m kind of old-fashioned that way, the way that cinematographers have always been with the directors, supporting them and trying to help bring their visual ideas up on the screen.<\/p>\n
You came up through the ranks, Alan, and you learned old school and that’s what’s missing today.\u00a0 You brought up a very good point about why so many cinematographers go into directing.\u00a0 I\u00a0 can’t tell you how many directors I’ll ask them about the cameras. They can’t even tell me what cameras were used on their film, or the look or emotion of the lighting design, and say, “You’d have to ask my cinematographer. I don’t pay attention to those things.”\u00a0 If I were a cinematographer working for that guy, it would make me want to go direct because obviously the cinematographer is the one who did everything.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0The other thing too, is that because there’s been no sort of apprenticeship, kind of working his way up through the ranks kind of thing anymore like it used to be, you don’t learn.\u00a0 \u00a0A lot of young cinematographers are really poor management people with their departments.\u00a0 They don’t have any feel or charisma with their crew because they actually don’t understand what the crew goes through and what they have to do.\u00a0 It’s sort of like people who are in management, who’ve never worked on the floor of whatever their company produces.\u00a0 I’ve heard such horror stories about the cinematographers who come out of AFI and immediately jumped into a job. And they’re abusive to the crew.\u00a0 They’re arrogant.\u00a0 They have no idea of how to manage the crew, how to get the best out of the crew, because they don’t even understand the jobs that the crew do.\u00a0 They don’t understand it. And worse than that, they don’t understand how to fix things on the set.\u00a0 They have no bag of tricks because they’ve come out of school and immediately start shooting.\u00a0 All they can do is copy what they see as art out there. They don’t have any life experience.\u00a0 They haven’t seen the world. They haven’t done enough of their own thing to apply.\u00a0 \u00a0And because they don’t have a bag of tricks because they have no experience, or very little experience, there’s so much today where you have young cinematographers and everybody’s fixing it in post.\u00a0 They shoot basically raw stuff and say, “Well, I’m going to fix it in post,” because that’s also what they’ve learned to do.\u00a0 They learned all the tricks of stuff with all the new applications and stuff you can do on your own computer, can do in the post-houses.\u00a0 So they fix stuff in post. But it’s just like if you’re adding atmosphere smoke on your set.\u00a0 When you have atmospheric smoke, something that’s real on set, that you put into the set, it has a different feel and it has a more organic and fruitfulness to it then if you add smoke in post.\u00a0 Smoke in post is a very two-dimensional thing.\u00a0 It doesn’t build up unless you want to spend thousands and thousands of thousands of dollars painting in the smoke properly.\u00a0\u00a0So that’s the difference between fixing things in post or doing stuff properly on the set.\u00a0 The more you would do stuff on the set, the more you light properly.\u00a0 The more you light and fix things on the set, the more organic and the more textural and the better your imagery is going to look.\u00a0 I’m afraid that you have so many cinematographers now who don’t have the experience and who do shortcuts all the way through, that they’re contributing en mass<\/em> all this material and product out there and the audience is now getting used to seeing that that’s the new norm.\u00a0 That’s what they’re used to seeing.\u00a0 They think that’s what the art is. \u00a0I think that the art of cinematography is getting degraded every year, more and more.\u00a0 I’ll get off my soapbox now.<\/p>\n
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Oh no!\u00a0 I love your soapbox.\u00a0 You need to do a presentation to film students.<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It’s always surprising that more cinematographers don’t come up through lighting, don’t you think, Alan?\u00a0 I always thought that was strange.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 Absolutely, I think some of the best cinematographers are people who are gaffers.\u00a0 \u00a0We have all these wonderful tools and stuff to fix stuff in post, but you should only go to those things when you absolutely must need to do it at the very end of the day.\u00a0 If production was hampered because of weather or things that just beyond your control, that’s one thing.\u00a0 But to fix normal things, just because you don’t have the know-how, stuff that we would normally think is just simple, fix-it stuff – it’s really gotten to be dire now.\u00a0\u00a0You hear the horror stories I hear from directors who tell me, “I was working with a cinematographer who just couldn’t figure out how to do it.”\u00a0 It was a simple reverse or whatever, just simple, stupid things. And they just don’t know how to do it.\u00a0 These are the people who are getting hired.<\/p>\n
And these are the people that are the future of the industry. That’s the worst part.<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0It’s true. I think in management it’s the same thing.\u00a0 You have people now who are heading up the studios who have absolutely no experience in marketing and don’t even know how their own product is being made. They’ve never been on a set, anything like that.\u00a0 And you look at Netflix, you’ve got executives literally going through a revolving door.\u00a0 That’s why they keep on firing and hiring all these young people.\u00a0 Because these people come in, they don’t know what they’re doing, they get fired. B ring in the next lot.\u00a0 It’s like, “Just hire people who know what they’re doing straight off the bat and you won’t have this problem.”\u00a0 This love affair with youth in our industry, which is another problem.\u00a0 Ageism is probably the worst abuse that’s happening in this industry.\u00a0 Much more so than even inclusion.\u00a0 It’s rampant. I’m even guilty of it myself when I hire people.\u00a0 When I hire crew and I see some old guy come in, it’s like, “Oh God, he’s going to bring it all in his fucking closet.\u00a0 Skeleton in the closet.\u00a0 All his biases.\u00a0 He’s going to come in and say, “No, I really don’t want to do this.\u00a0 You know, I just don’t do stuff that way.”\u00a0 Bring me the young person who just is ready to go and ready to do anything.\u00a0 So I’m as guilty as anybody else. I’m terrible.\u00a0 It’s like, I don’t want to see the old guys coming in.\u00a0 And I know that’s true.\u00a0 Because if I’m saying that about people, what are they saying when I walk in the door?\u00a0 Like, “Who wants to hire this old guy? What a jackass.”<\/p>\n
So Nicola, now not only do you have to worry about sexism, as you go through the industry, now you ‘ve got to worry about ageism coming up in 20, 30 years.<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I know, I know.\u00a0 I think the saving grace for that, is as cinematographers, you can be 70 and still be the oldest person on set.\u00a0 I call it the career that keeps on giving.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Even with directors, they can’t be that old.\u00a0 That’s why I’m desperate to move to Europe because I think in Europe, they respect old cinematographers even more than here.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
No, I think you’re right, Alan. This is so wonderful talking to the two of you.\u00a0 For my money, you both succeeded tenfold with PARADISE LOST. I love every episode.\u00a0 I love Nicola’s work and your shooting of the greenhouse, which is stunning.\u00a0 \u00a0You both capture nature so beautifully.\u00a0 \u00a0You make me salivate with those flashbacks.\u00a0 And then you throw in underwater photography. But before I let you go,\u00a0 I’m curious what was the best thing for each of you, the most gratifying thing, about working on PARADISE LOST?<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I think, for me, I was really quite nervous because, like you said Debbie, I’d never worked in America before.\u00a0 I never worked on a show that had this much money.\u00a0 And so, for me, I was like, “Wow, this is going to be a big learning curve.”\u00a0 But that’s because I always wanted those opportunities.\u00a0 I just didn’t have them.\u00a0 I knew I could deal with it.\u00a0 I just had never been given that opportunity before and I’ve been shooting for 15 years.\u00a0 I’ve been shooting a long time.\u00a0 So to have that challenge met, that I could handle a crew that big with all those [toys].\u00a0 I’d never had a 50-foot Techno, I’d never had a budget to have a 50-foot Techno crane before.\u00a0 I was like, “Wow!\u00a0 I asked for a crane and I got one.”\u00a0 \u00a0Normally I ask and they say, “Oh no, no way.”<\/p>\n
Every girl’s dream is to ask for a 50-foot Techno crane and get it!<\/strong><\/p>\n
ND:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Exactly!\u00a0 I’d been reading a few scripts in America since I had an American agent for about a year.\u00a0 And I think just reading this, I just knew it was a project that I really wanted, that Southern Gothic.\u00a0 \u00a0It’s so different from anything I’ve ever done and to come to the South and sort of look at the South with tourist’s eyes.\u00a0 Do you know what I mean?\u00a0 You can see it afresh in a new way where I could think, “How are we going to do this?”, and look at the South from a British point of view.\u00a0 I think I said that in my interview with you, Al, didn’t I?\u00a0 I said Frances is a fish out of water and I will be, so, therefore you should hire me.<\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0That was a big thing that Rodes Fishburne and I wanted, is to have a new set of eyes on all this.\u00a0 We thought that you coming in, bringing in a different set of eyes, was going to be vital and stimulating, stirring the pot and getting the mixture going, which is the whole reason for inclusion. \u00a0 That is the essence of inclusion. The essence of inclusion is that I don’t want to be surrounded by a bunch of old white guys that look exactly like myself. Because we all have the same life experiences, we’ve all done the same things in life, and where’s the art in that?\u00a0 You get people who bring in all these different ideas and walks and experiences of life and that’s the way you tell great stories.\u00a0 For me, every so often you just get those shows that come on, that you get to do all the stuff you want to do because you’re in complete accord with the showrunner or the producer or the creative producers and directors.\u00a0 And you get to do all the stuff that you want to do; things that already are in your wheelhouse that you’re good at, but also stuff you wanted to do on other shows and haven’t been able to do.\u00a0 So this is just one of those shows. That’s why, to me, that’s what made this show so great for me, it was all the stuff I wanted to do.\u00a0 \u00a0And having John Lee Hancock as the first director, who I did the pilot with, he and I, we just saw everything the same way.\u00a0 And to a lesser degree, but not so little also, was with Romeo.\u00a0 Romeo and I saw everything very similar.\u00a0 \u00a0So it was a good experience.\u00a0 But I just knew that the material is the stuff that I know how to do really well. And I just wanted to do something different with that material that I’ve done with similar material in the past. And so it was good.<\/p>\n
I can’t thank the two of you enough. This has been just one of the best conversations ever.\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n
AC:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Oh, that’s great.\u00a0 We sure appreciate being asked to do this. That was very nice of you.\u00a0 We’ll keep you posted and seeing what we’re doing.\u00a0 It’s really been terrific. It’s great talking with you.<\/p>\n
by debbie elias, exclusive interview 05\/13\/2020<\/p>\n
PARADISE LOST is airing now on Spectrum Originals.<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
ALAN CASO is a name that many within the film industry immediately recognize as one that represents excellence in cinematography.\u00a0 With almost 50 years in the industry, Caso started his career as a grip, working his way through the lighting and lensing ranks into camera operation and ultimately cinematographer, garnering four Emmy nominations, three […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":28460,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[3626],"tags":[8255,8263,8262,8259,8257,3494,1489,220,8258,6469,8261,8256,8254,8260],"class_list":["post-28434","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interview-exclusives","tag-alan-caso","tag-american-society-of-cinematographers","tag-asc","tag-cameras","tag-cinematographers","tag-debbie-elias","tag-exclusive-interview","tag-interview","tag-lenses","tag-lighting","tag-mississippi","tag-nicola-daley","tag-paradise-lost","tag-sony-venice"],"yoast_head":"\n
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